Translate or not Translate Light -Please take a look to the delineation-

[artemia]

Hello NodeRama! I really would like your insights in the delineation of my horary chart.

The question is a usual type of question '' will we be together again''.
The first chart for that question i casted few months ago had mitigations of radicality but it wasn't radical rooted through one of the three traditional ways of agreement and due to Paula's advise to ask again for a better understanding of the present situation i casted a new one after 4 and a half months. This chart is radical-rooted.

Data for the question: Will We Be Together Again?
Mo., 2 January 2012
in Athens, GRC, 23e43, 37n58
Time 9:37 p.m.

Some backing info's we broke up some months ago just like that without further explanations, it was a long-distance relationship, i miss him and i am very worry cause he is sick so he will be under meds for the rest of his life. He blocked our communication from everywhere but recently he unblocked me from a social network and when i emailed him that i am accepting and respect his decisions etc, he replied with an e mail telling me not to send him again - though he knew i will email but still he unblocked me, why to do that when you do not want someone to email you!- We will be attending the same fest in few days but currently we don't speak to each other and common friends will be there also.

Back to the delineation of the chart.

Virgo rising and Saturn ruler of the hour agrees with earth, so the Hour-ruler has same humoral nature as the ascendant, there is an agreement thus the chart is valid.

Ascendant in virgo 5°30' makes Mercury in 22°17' of Sagittarius primal significator for the querent. Mercury is peregrine and in detriment but accidentally dignified by being angular in the 4th house but oriental, if i am correct - i have a hard time to distinguish oriental vs occidental sometimes- Mercury gains strenght if occidental.

Descendant in Pisces 5°30' makes Jupiter in 0°28 of Taurus primal significator for the quesited. Jupiter is peregrine but accidentally dignified by being in the high elavation 9th house but occidental, he should be oriental.

Between the primal significator there is a platic dexter applying trine 8°11 forming with the querent being the swifer approaching the quesited,with mix reception by rulership-term, the trine is received by jupiter in his rulership. Though Mercury is in his detriment is quite reasonable, to be received by rulership you have to be in your detriment, when someone is apart from his loved one that aches thus it is detrimental.

The moon is in late degree of Aries in 28°41 and about to enter taurus where she will gain essential dignity by exaltation. In the current sign of Aries is peregrine but accidenta dignified by being in 9th house and occidental that allows her to be able to act. Even though the moon is in late degrees IS NOT VOID OF COUSE. Lilly says: A planet is void of course, when he is separated from a planet, nor doth forthwith, during his being in that sign, apply to any other: ...".Contrary to what most of us understood, this does not mean that the aspect has to perfect while the Moon is in its current sign. What it does mean is that the application has to be in effect while the Moon is in its current sign. Application operates only when the Moon (or planet) is 'within orbs' of the planet it next meets by major aspect. It doesn't matter, from this point of view, that it has to leave the sign before perfecting the aspect. So, to be void of course the Moon (or planet) has to be out of orb of the next planet it might meet by major aspect - even if it will eventually perfect this aspect within the current sign.

This matter largely depends on the definition of application in Lilly's terms, and those of the authors he drew upon, and it meant to be within orb. The application happeneth when as the circles or beames of the planettes come to joyne togeather by a corporall conjunction or by aspecte of the one half of their deamiters. This definition is clear: a planet cannot be said to be applying until it is within orb, or joint moieties, of another. The meaning of application has altered in modern times to that of 'moving forward in the sign', but Lilly deals with this separately. 'Applying to' means to be within the joint moieties of the two planets concerned.The evidence in Christian Astrology supports this almost exclusively and I conclude that the Moon is not void of course if it is contacting another planet through the joint moieties, whether it perfects in or out of its current sign. Therefore, the Moon (or planet) can be void of course even when it is in early degrees, if the next planet it meets in major aspect is out of orb.

Moon's last aspect -which is significant- is with quesited Jupiter by body(conjunction) with mix reception by exaltation -triplicity,and moon is received by jupiter in triplicity and jupiter is received my moon in exaltation and triplicity. Moon is making an applying conjuntcion with quesited in 1°47 but just seperated from a trine with querent, we could take that as a translation of light even though the two primal significators are in aspect. Forms of translation of light have depended on the significators being in separating or no aspect. Can the same forms hold, however, when the significators are in applying aspect?
Mercury and Jupiter are significators. Mercury and co-significator Moon both apply to Jupiter.

This arrangement fulfils Bonatti's first type of perfection, not considered by him to be a translation of light but rather a simple perfection of both significators for the querent with that of the quesited. If the interposing planet placed between applying significators is another fast-mover such as Mercury, then this third party can participate in a more effective perfection of significators, according to Lilly. It appears that Lilly is suggesting the possibility of the applying significators,Mercury and Jupiter perfecting on their own, but the interposition of Moon points to how the outcome may be more successfully achieved. All will depend, on whether Moon is a helpful friend or an interfering enemy to the querent .

In any case, however, the interposition must be evaluated in terms of whether the person or thing signified by it will support or obstruct the perfection of significators of querent or quesited in the matter inquired after. For instance, here the moon is the ruler of the 11th, then might mean that a friend or social situation would help the matter if it was ruler of the 12 maybe would be an enemy acting to the destruction of the matter maybe. Moon's dispositor is mars if a person could be a man then he should be generally middle stature, strong bodies, big bones, more lean than fat; When Mars is oriental, the man have a decent tallness of body, a common friend is like that. Mars is in ascendant and trines sun, also sun trines the ascendant and they will be an upcoming dexter trine between moon and sun.

There is an opposition between Jupiter and Saturn but Saturn isn't getting in the way. That would be a prohibition if the two planets, significators, are applying toward a major aspect, but before it perfects, a third planet PERFECTS a major aspect to one of the two significators, and Prohibition might not necessarily prohibit a positive outcome, but show some sort of outside intereference, the nature of which will be revealed by the interfering planet and the house it rules in the horary chart.

Here mercury perfects first the trine with jupiter and jupiter -cause he turned direct - he is moving away from saturn so they will never perfect the opposition.

North node is in a good place in sagittarius and angular in the 4 th house so is Part of Fortune in taurus and in 9 th house.

Maybe it' s a yes with difficulty, i am not sure cause it's hard to be astrologer of your own horary chart and especially when the content of the question applys to a personal relationship, so any insight would be wellcome.

[fensi88]

Moon is your co ruler and it first perfect aspect (after change sign) with his ruler Ju. That is Yes answer. Generaly, when you have case when rulers make aspect when one of the ruler change sign, it means that matter asked about will happen when you lose hope! Out of sign aspects tends to show that something about the situation will need to change before the matter can come to pass. The Moon changing signs to its exaltation might suggest a change for the better.
I had one chart where there was a similar situation and answer was Yes. Read this:
http://www.astrosport07.webs.com/beckla.html

[artemia]

(29 Jan 2012 12:26)fensi88 Wrote:  Moon is your co ruler and it first perfect aspect (after change sign) with his ruler Ju. That is Yes answer. Generaly, when you have case when rulers make aspect when one of the ruler change sign, it means that matter asked about will happen when you lose hope! Out of sign aspects tends to show that something about the situation will need to change before the matter can come to pass. The Moon changing signs to its exaltation might suggest a change for the better.
I had one chart where there was a similar situation and answer was Yes. Read this:
http://www.astrosport07.webs.com/beckla.html

HAHAHAHA WHEN I READ THAT '''when you lose hope!''' I REALLY BURST TO TEARS FROM LAUGHING! IT IS EXACTLY HOW I FEEL NOW!!!

Seriously i used the same expression to describe how i feel to a friend early in the morning today!

I thought that too, that the moon entering in exaltation would be a change for the better but i read somewhere that this applys for significators only but the moon is a co-significator though i cannot explain it otherwise than something will change. Mercury is in his detriment and i feel kinda, detrimental i.e loosing hope.

Thanks for the link, i ll go right away to check it.

[Paula]

I think you have worked hard on this chart!

Since it has been some months since the first chart, that is just fine to do another one. However on the same question, be aware that asking again and again can cause the chart to unravel and not show anything or else just keep showing the same thing. (This is a warning for others reading the note about me suggesting you cast another chart and also for you to know that you should wait aother 4 to 6 months should you wish to do another chart.)

I hope you will find your answer soon and may it be a positive answer.

Remember that the Moon is often telling us timing. If it rules something related to the chart or is the querent's or the quesited's ruling planet, then it loses its place for representing timing.

[artemia]

Yes, i worked hard but i missed that mercury will aspect saturn before jupiter but if the prohibition don't deny the matter but just delay it because some difficulties have to be overcome that would be a rainforced mitigation of the moon change signs meaning change of situation. Maybe what have to change is whatever prohibits the matter and that will be shown by what saturn rules in the chart.

But even if that is the case, when a prohibition occurs then can the matter be perfect only by the moon aspecting the quesited?
And can we take the moon here as a translation of light?

The moon changing signs surely something shows but i do not think that moon changing signs to perfect an aspect along with a prohibition is an automatically no answer and that is what puzzles me in that chart.

Should i take it like a pure-cut no answer?

Antony Louis to his book refers about prohibition that the significators moving to perfection but a SWIFTER planet intervenes and prohibits meaning that either mercury needs to apply to aspect to a swifter planet that jupiter or a swifter planet than mercury applys to mercury or a swifter planet that jupiter applys to jupiter, here mercury will sextile saturn before jupiter receives the trine in his rulership so is this prohibition?

The first chart was not radical rooted so i asked after 4 and a half months but i do not intend to ask sooner than 6-12 months especially because that chart is radical.

It would not show something different even if i would ask again in a short period of time so i am avoiding it though i would if only there were a BIG -HUGE change.

Thank you Paula!

[artemia]

A. Factors that does not configure a prohibition -From considerations about Masha'allah
teachings of Horary Astrology.-

1. If the significator commits it's disposition to another planet but the last one receives the significator.

2. If this planet is a fortunate star

3. If the is in an angle or in a place of his own strenght

example

mercury be in 10 capri looking for an aspectual conjuction with venus at 16 of cancer and mercury perfects the aspect to saturn first, mercury is in saturns domicile so saturn does not impede mercury for reaching venus.

venus does not receive mercury and mercury does not receive venus but venus is a fortunate star and if in a strong the matter will come to pass even if venus is not a significator and saturn is malefic, and both angular.

Masha' allah says:''...the end of the matter will be according the lord of the matter sought for because of a fortunate planet is in a good place even without reception'' page 32

Let's suppose that saturn did not receive mercury in the above case but was in an angle and in one of his dignities aqua-capri-libra Masha'allah admits that in this case at least part of the matter would cometo pass.

B. Also planets in the Asc or in the house of the matter should be a participant in the work even if they are less important that moon and the primal significators can offer possitive help. If a planet that is in the asc it is received by a planet applyng to it , it's an indicative of the goodness of the matter.

C. The moon and significators can transfer to the next sign to complete the apsect as long as they are in application in the current sign then judge accordingly to the planet to whom the moon or the primal significator will be joined first.



According to the above rules then A. Mercury will reach Saturn before Jupiter but Mercury will apply a sextile from an angle to an essentially by exaltation dignified Saturn in 3 house even though cadent the 3 house offers accidental dignity -but maybe that he is cadent means that he will not act- Saturn is the more degnified planet in the chart with more strenght that the others( planet strength 23 ) receives Mercury in term and face and mercury will receive Saturn in Triplicity. Also Mercury will trine a benefic star which is a significator too -peregrine but accidentally dignified- and receives the trine that mercury brings in his rulership and mercury receives Jupiter in face.

So, does saturn impede mercury for reaching jupiter or not?

B. Mars is in the Ascendant ans sun , general co-significator of the quesited will trine Mars in -8°44 and mars receives sun in exaltation and face and also sun trines the ascendant.

C. ''... judge accordingly to the planet to whom the moon or the primal significator will be joined first.'' In this case Moon reach first Jupiter by body and jupiter receives moon in triplicity and moon receives jupiter in exaltation and triplicity.

So, what you think?

[artemia]

Ι think i found one piece of the puzzle. If i don't regard the Masha' allah special conditions about when an planet interfiering is not prohibits the matter then saturn prohibits mercury BUT moon is not.

What i missed though is that :
The Moon is next applying to the quesited without prohibition, but it did aspect Saturn last instead of the querent, which is odd because, yes, Saturn prohibits Mercury from aspecting Jupiter. Saturn then is representing a hindrance, but, like I said, the Moon is not prohibited. The Moon is also increasing in dignity upon aspect. Both of my significators are heavily influenced by malefics via aspect, suggesting other circumstances getting in the way, but quesited himself is not rejectful, etc.

Moon last aspected Saturn in a partile opposition, meaning the light between Moon-Mercury was given to Saturn in an opposition and next Moon carries the influence of Saturn to Jupiter. It would translate the light of Saturn to Jupiter, not Mercury to Jupiter. But there are communications and distance issues. It seems to make sense given the placement of Saturn in the 3 house in all of this. It seems like it would take a lot of work to overcome this issue but not impossible.

The Moon is very impressionable and you don't generally want it influenced by malefics in hard aspect, especially unreceived, but it's better that the Moon separate from a malefic and apply to a benefic than vice versa because it generally indicates improvement. However, it also means the Moon is carrying the influence of that malefic into the matter and so it can sort of self-defeat its purpose if it's not careful. Since you i am so heavily afflicted, that is one way of looking at things - being impeded, either by my own actions or through others'/outer circumstances.

I would appreciate any opinion upon that.

[Paula]

Go back and look at the chart. Forget everything you ever thought about the chart. Distill and simplify. Look at the main characters and see if you see anything new. You're trying too hard, overthinking this.

Perhaps because it means so very much to you. It's really hard to see a chart that is our own.

[ToddCarnes]

(29 Jan 2012 10:56)artemia Wrote:  Hello NodeRama! I really would like your insights in the delineation of my horary chart.

The question is a usual type of question '' will we be together again''.
The first chart for that question i casted few months ago had mitigations of radicality but it wasn't radical rooted through one of the three traditional ways of agreement and due to Paula's advise to ask again for a better understanding of the present situation i casted a new one after 4 and a half months. This chart is radical-rooted.

Data for the question: Will We Be Together Again?
Mo., 2 January 2012
in Athens, GRC, 23e43, 37n58
Time 9:37 p.m.

Some backing info's we broke up some months ago just like that without further explanations, it was a long-distance relationship, i miss him and i am very worry cause he is sick so he will be under meds for the rest of his life. He blocked our communication from everywhere but recently he unblocked me from a social network and when i emailed him that i am accepting and respect his decisions etc, he replied with an e mail telling me not to send him again - though he knew i will email but still he unblocked me, why to do that when you do not want someone to email you!- We will be attending the same fest in few days but currently we don't speak to each other and common friends will be there also.

Back to the delineation of the chart.

I purposefully stopped reading your post at the point indicated above so as not to allow my delineation to be influenced too much by yours. I also re-cast the chart to get rid of the outers (they're unnecessary and tend to distract) and to include some horary related stuff....

Anyway, here goes...

Question: Will we be together again?
Querent: Mercury(L1) & Moon
Quesited: Jupiter(L7)

The chart is radical (Ascendant & hour ruler in agreement). However, it should be noted that the Moon is slow and Void of Course.

Does the chart describe the situation? Yes, I think it does. Mercury (you) are peregrine and weak. This shows you are powerless to act. You cannot affect the outcome in any meaningful way. Jupiter (the other person) is in a land some distance from you (9th house) and is applying to a opposition to Saturn (L6 - house of illness).

As to the question at hand... The smple answer is that "No, I do not think you will get back together."

Moon VoC says nothing will come of it. Also there are no aspects between you (Mercury) and the other person (Jupiter). I think the fact that Mercury is both ruled by Jupiter and in Jupiter's triplicity shows how thoughts of the person have been allowed to dominate you in a way, but if you look to Mercury's other dignities you find Mercury is in Saturn's (illness) Face & Term as well as his own detriment. This is not a good situation for you.

Some might argue that the Moon is applying to a conjunction to Jupiter and thus you will be brought back to the other person in roughly 1.5 time units, but tis is a false hope. The Moon times the question, but the question ends when she changes signs. So, the question ends before she can join Jupiter.

I'm sorry. This re-joining will not happen.

Now, I shall read the rest of the posts in this thread.

Todd

[ToddCarnes]

(29 Jan 2012 10:56)artemia Wrote:  The moon is in late degree of Aries in 28°41 and about to enter taurus where she will gain essential dignity by exaltation. In the current sign of Aries is peregrine but accidenta dignified by being in 9th house and occidental that allows her to be able to act. Even though the moon is in late degrees IS NOT VOID OF COUSE. Lilly says: A planet is void of course, when he is separated from a planet, nor doth forthwith, during his being in that sign, apply to any other: ...".Contrary to what most of us understood, this does not mean that the aspect has to perfect while the Moon is in its current sign. What it does mean is that the application has to be in effect while the Moon is in its current sign. Application operates only when the Moon (or planet) is 'within orbs' of the planet it next meets by major aspect. It doesn't matter, from this point of view, that it has to leave the sign before perfecting the aspect. So, to be void of course the Moon (or planet) has to be out of orb of the next planet it might meet by major aspect - even if it will eventually perfect this aspect within the current sign.

This matter largely depends on the definition of application in Lilly's terms, and those of the authors he drew upon, and it meant to be within orb. The application happeneth when as the circles or beames of the planettes come to joyne togeather by a corporall conjunction or by aspecte of the one half of their deamiters. This definition is clear: a planet cannot be said to be applying until it is within orb, or joint moieties, of another. The meaning of application has altered in modern times to that of 'moving forward in the sign', but Lilly deals with this separately. 'Applying to' means to be within the joint moieties of the two planets concerned.The evidence in Christian Astrology supports this almost exclusively and I conclude that the Moon is not void of course if it is contacting another planet through the joint moieties, whether it perfects in or out of its current sign. Therefore, the Moon (or planet) can be void of course even when it is in early degrees, if the next planet it meets in major aspect is out of orb.

Please do not take offense, but I think the extreme effort you took to justify your decision to ignore the Moon's VoC status (over half your delineation is an argument as to why you are ignoring the Moon VoC) is evidence that you know better, but are choosing to allow "wishful thinking" to cloud your judgment in this matter.

Deep down, I think you already knew the answer to the question before you asked it. It is always difficult to judge charts we are too close to.

Sometimes, a VoC Moon CAN act. It depends on what sign she is in, BUT Aries is not one of those signs. At the end of the sign, the question ends. Anything that the Moon does after that point is moot, as far as the current question is concerned.

---

(29 Jan 2012 10:56)artemia Wrote:  Moon's last aspect -which is significant- is with quesited Jupiter by

The Moon's last aspect is/was with Saturn in this chart, not Jupiter. There is a mutual reception by triplicity between them, but I hardly think that would be strong enough to act, especially since the main significators (the one's that really matter) are Mercury & Jupiter and they do not meet each other in this chart.

One note, earlier I said Saturn was L6. That was an error in this case. While he is your L6 in this chart. The disease in question is not yours, so we should look to the 6th of the 7th (Sun) for the other person's disease significator. In this case it is a peregrine Sun in your 5th and his 11th. This is interesting in that the disease (Sun) is in Jupter's (partner's) fall and is being ruled by the Greater Malefic, Saturn. I think this is another testimony that the chart is radical.

Todd

[Paula]

Todd, so glad to see you back!

I must admit I haven't really looked at this chart. I am very frustrated with my computer situation. I have access occasionally with a laptop that doesn't run charts and my computer that runs charts no longer goes online. I have to do alot of up and down stairs to get through one chart (I have my own rituals I go through each time of doing a chart) and I've been crazy busy with preparing for a legal matter etc.

I have thought more than once of giving up my part of this forum because I am not doing it justice; yet my goal was to perpetuate the interest and introduce the concept of traditional horary astrology. So, even though I have failed to follow through at times with looking at each chart and properly delineating (due to various factors), I have tried to keep my original intent in mind.

I wish we had more interest in this forum because it would help motivate me to work harder.

thanks for your honest judgment.

[ToddCarnes]

(05 Feb 2012 17:24)Paula Wrote:  Todd, so glad to see you back!

Nice to be back.

(05 Feb 2012 17:24)Paula Wrote:  I must admit I haven't really looked at this chart. I am very frustrated with my computer situation. I have access occasionally with a laptop that doesn't run charts and my computer that runs charts no longer goes online. I have to do alot of up and down stairs to get through one chart (I have my own rituals I go through each time of doing a chart) and I've been crazy busy with preparing for a legal matter etc.

I have thought more than once of giving up my part of this forum because I am not doing it justice; yet my goal was to perpetuate the interest and introduce the concept of traditional horary astrology. So, even though I have failed to follow through at times with looking at each chart and properly delineating (due to various factors), I have tried to keep my original intent in mind.

I wish we had more interest in this forum because it would help motivate me to work harder.

I hope you get your computer problems fixed up so you're not forced to completely quit the forum, but I do understand how life can get in the way of online activities.

As I'm sure you already know, I used to be a LOT more active online myself, but "stuff" happens. I have basically been wihout any real job since Nov of 2009 and it has become more and more difficult for me to get online and interact with my online friends in any meaningful way.

(05 Feb 2012 17:24)Paula Wrote:  thanks for your honest judgment.

You're welcome.

Todd

[Paula]

That's a long time to be without work. I'm sorry to hear about that.