Is he the father of her baby?

[dog8818]

A friend of mine thinks he may have gotten a mutual friend pregnant. Trouble is, she's been a kinda busy girl. So last night (january 9, 2009) at 0:44 Seattle Washington (PST) time I cast a chart. For the life of me I can't figure out this simple question.

I get a 20 degree Libra rising chart. My male friend is represented by Mars (ruler of 7th). I look at the 5th from the 7th as his "children" house. (Leo on cusp). The Sun is separating from a conjunction from Mars, 10 degrees. (ironically, the time it takes to gestate a baby). But that doesn't answer my question.

Ahhh, the Moon is void of course!

What would you see this as? If the void moon means "doesn't matter anyway, nothing will come of it", is that an indication that the pregnancy will not continue? The Mom-to-be is in her 4th month.

[Paula]

I just read something about how the traditional view of void of course moon actually came from a totally different meaning than what we interpret it today to mean. I wish I could remember the exact wording. it came directly from John Frawley's website and was quoted on another forum. I think it was something about how we view it as nothing happening but in the old days they thought of it as "hardly" meaning being HARD for it to move along but still could move along.

In terms of this question, I'm not really sure. Another forum I frequent had a similar type question on it but I haven't had a chance to read or study anyone's delineation. I think you would need to identify the planet to represent your mutual friend. Then, see the potential father's connection with her fifth house? I'll see what else I can dig up on the subject.

[fensi88]

If you ask question, than, your friend is represented with ruler of radical 11 house, and baby of his turned 5th house. If there is aeparate aspect between rulwers, answer is "yes" and VOC Moon in this case means "yes, you do not have to worry". But if there are no separate aspect between rulers than answer is "no, nothing will ome out of it".

[dog8818]

Paula, in this case the old meaning could be true (being HARD, but could still move along) because both parties are married to other people.

[Paula]

ouch. That's really too bad. I was wondering, is she more your friend or his? I need to run the chart and look but that might help trying to figure out her planet/significator.

[Paula]

Looking at the chart, I'm still wondering about which friend is what here. If both are mutual friends of somewhat equal merit, then I'm not sure. If you look at your mutual lady friend as being ruler of 11th house, Mercury, she is stationary, nearly retrograde, and probably feeling really sick about her "kinda busy" activity. That would make sense. Her fifth house would be the radical 3rd, ruled by Jupiter, in Aquarius. The receptions are interesting and just need sorted out!

I could also see your male friend (possible father) as Mercury, feeling sick about his situation.

Often, Saturn is the spouse that is wronged when there is busy activity outside the marriage. Interesting that Mars is ruled by Saturn.

Mercury and Saturn are ruled by each other and in mutual reception. That is significant, but I still need to identify who is who here. Can you give us a description of the two friends you ask about? That might help!

[dog8818]

Ah, once I simplified it, the answer became more obvious. To answer your question, they are both my friends, I knew him before her, but there was a betrayal to me in the scenario as well, because she knew that I had feelings for my male friend, and because of his marital status I would not act on it. But, she evidently had no such morals. She is 14 years younger than both he and I, and I considered her more a "daughter"-type than a friend.

Anyway, I put him as Venus, ruler of the Ascendant, since the question is about him (is HE the father of HER baby). That puts Venus in Pisces in the 5th, which fits the situation of a "love affair" and "children" very well. Not to mention the Pisces deception, no? She is Mars, ruler of the 7th. But it falls in his 3rd... which is where I am stumped.

[Paula]

well, you'd want to look at HIS 5th house and what aspects and reception the ruler would have with HER 5th house ruler, I think. OR possibly just her fifth house ruler in connection with him. I've only seen this same type of question twice before and it's a difficult one. His fifth house ruler is Jupiter, and hers would be Mercury, if you've chosen your houses right to represent them.

I think I'd agree with Fensi about using the 11th house for one of them, though. That would give him Mercury, and her Jupiter and their fifth houses would be confusing since they are also the same significators only switched.

If she were Jupiter, the 7th from the 11th, her ruler would be in her 12th house, the house of her undoing. If that is the correct choice, I'd wonder and worry some about the health of the baby with Mercury being at station and about to retrograde at the time of your question. These houses would fit because Venus sitting on the cusp of the 5th, just inside is a picture of pregnancy to me, but I need to doublecheck with my notes. I'll try to do that tonite after work and see what I see.

It's always difficult when a chart has the chart rulers in question. If we simplify it totally, his significator being ruler of her fifth (using 11th/and 7th from 11th) might indicate that yes, he is father of her baby.

Keep us posted. These are always interesting questions to find out the result when possible to see where we went wrong, or if we were right.

Either way you go, the baby appears to be Mercury, not very good considering Mercury's condition. Weird thing is that on the chart Mercury gets a score of 10. John Frawley says ignore these scores because they are often wrong, not taking the proper things into consideration. (with Mercury at station, I wouldn't consider that a strong planet, but it is in mutual reception with Saturn, that's another factor to consider - for good or for bad depending on what Saturn rules and represents.)

I'm sorry about your friend's betrayal.

[Paula]

Remember it's ok to play around with these charts until all the signs and significators make sense. Sometimes it takes a little bit to figure out where to start. If we can get the right significators to begin with, that makes the answer easier to predict correctly.

[dog8818]

I asked the inimitable Lee Lehman the question about significators. Here's her answer: "I'd say - he's the 1st house - he has to be. She's the 5th - so the child is the 5th from the 5th, and I'd read the answer yes if the 9th in some way relates to the 1st."

So he is represented by Venus in the 5th, 5th is ruled by Saturn, Venus is ruled by Jupiter in the "end of matter" 4th house, also ruled by Saturn. The mother of the baby (the 5th) is Saturn in the 11th house of friends. Makes sense, since she was a friend. Mercury is the ruler of the 5th from the 5th (the baby), and the VOC moon is positioned there. Mercury and Saturn are in mutual reception, so the 9th relates to the 5th as well as the 1st. Paula has already well-stated the condition of Mercury and only time will tell how it pans out. It could be that stationing Mercury represents a baby that is not "wanted" in some way, certainly by the father, although the mother had been trying to get pregnant for some time by her husband, with no success. Mercury went retrograde and returns to the same position of the chart in 4 days, 15 hours, which could roughly correspond to 4.5 months if there is going to be a problem with the pregnancy I would see it occuring halfway through her 4th month. She is just now 4 months pregnant. Additionally, she currently has Saturn opposing her Moon and Uranus sitting on her very-late 6th house Moon (19 pisces). If something were to happen to the baby in the 4th month, it would explain the VOC (nothing will come of it) Moon.

Venus (him) makes an approaching opposition to Saturn (her). Mercury makes no aspect to either planet. I'm thinking that this pregnancy isn't exactly going to draw the two parties closer.

also interesting is that Moon, making separating aspects to Uranus (in the father's house) and Saturn (ruler of Mother and the 5th house)! Shows the father's absolute detachment from the child-making process and the mother's acceptance of responsibility and the burden....

And finally, taking things a step further, it appears from the horary that the respective spouses of the parties will either not know about the indiscretion or be in acceptance... because the 7th house rulers of both the father and the mother are supportive... (i.e., Mars rules "his" 7th house, and forms a waxing sextile to "his" ruler, Venus, and the Sun rules "her" 7th house, and forms a waxing trine to her ruler, Saturn).... very interesting!!

[dog8818]

also, something else confirming the baby is Mercury... the due date is June 4, Gemini.

[Paula]

I'm surprised Lee would choose the fifth for the woman. That's not something I would have expected. I have one of her books on rulerships and she seems to have a good handle on it though. What a confusing story situation!

One thing I remember from my class on horary: A woman is pregnant if the ruler of her fifth house sits squarely in her first house. Very descriptive picture of pregnant!

[Caryel]

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